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	<title>Comments on: Working for International Web Standards</title>
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		<title>By: Findings 12.05.08 &#124; 8164</title>
		<link>http://stevenclark.com.au/2008/11/30/working-for-international-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-3806</link>
		<dc:creator>Findings 12.05.08 &#124; 8164</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 07:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevenclark.com.au/?p=1617#comment-3806</guid>
		<description>[...] Working for International Web Standards - Steven writes a very good article on the awareness when designing for international audience. His article was prompted by Henny Swan&#8217;s. The example he used happens to be on China, a country I&#8217;m quite familiar with. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Working for International Web Standards &#8211; Steven writes a very good article on the awareness when designing for international audience. His article was prompted by Henny Swan&#8217;s. The example he used happens to be on China, a country I&#8217;m quite familiar with. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Henny</title>
		<link>http://stevenclark.com.au/2008/11/30/working-for-international-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-3800</link>
		<dc:creator>Henny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 10:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevenclark.com.au/?p=1617#comment-3800</guid>
		<description>Steven, I think a Web Standards Cafe in Oz that focuses on web standards and China would be a great idea, even if it was one session. My feeling is that there are an increasing number of people who want to know about China, Chinese web design (as Jin so correctly points out)  and standards but as there hasn&#039;t been much open dialogue yet they are tucked away wondering about it by themselves. So this dialogue like this is great!

Jin, you are spot on about Chinese and Western taste in web design. People I have spoken to in China and my experience of working on the web in Shanghai back in 2000 was that if pages didn&#039;t have animated gifs, were busy and packed with information then they were not considered to do the job. My understanding is also that in the East people prefer to scroll rather than click which is not necessarily what people want to do in the West.

I think a good example of the differences in approaches can be seen in the differences between Yahoo!  UK http://uk.yahoo.com/ and Yahoo! China http://cn.yahoo.com/.

Jin, I also can&#039;t wait to read your artical. I&#039;d love to link to it from WaSP so by all means ping me at henny at iheni dot com.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven, I think a Web Standards Cafe in Oz that focuses on web standards and China would be a great idea, even if it was one session. My feeling is that there are an increasing number of people who want to know about China, Chinese web design (as Jin so correctly points out)  and standards but as there hasn&#8217;t been much open dialogue yet they are tucked away wondering about it by themselves. So this dialogue like this is great!</p>
<p>Jin, you are spot on about Chinese and Western taste in web design. People I have spoken to in China and my experience of working on the web in Shanghai back in 2000 was that if pages didn&#8217;t have animated gifs, were busy and packed with information then they were not considered to do the job. My understanding is also that in the East people prefer to scroll rather than click which is not necessarily what people want to do in the West.</p>
<p>I think a good example of the differences in approaches can be seen in the differences between Yahoo!  UK <a href="http://uk.yahoo.com/" rel="nofollow">http://uk.yahoo.com/</a> and Yahoo! China <a href="http://cn.yahoo.com/" rel="nofollow">http://cn.yahoo.com/</a>.</p>
<p>Jin, I also can&#8217;t wait to read your artical. I&#8217;d love to link to it from WaSP so by all means ping me at henny at iheni dot com.</p>
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		<title>By: steven</title>
		<link>http://stevenclark.com.au/2008/11/30/working-for-international-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-3794</link>
		<dc:creator>steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 01:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevenclark.com.au/?p=1617#comment-3794</guid>
		<description>I agree Jin, a quick look at Japanese websites is enough to show even from a basically visual glance that cultural expectations of what a website should look like is evident. So it&#039;s a greater issue than translation of the information. That&#039;s where I feel bridging the communities where we are and having standardistas push from within their own communities in their own language is fundamental to the effective dissemination of this knowledge.

Another thing. Say I was a large company with a website that would have to be used in both China and Australia, I would try to avoid just having one website that is repurposed for language alone. At that scale, with the money available, two separate websites in my opinion would be far more effective. Content needs to be specific to the audience and culture, as does design. As you point out by the Chinese example, minimilism isn&#039;t the Chinese expectation. I know if the company was Chinese and their website that I went to deal with was a translation only I&#039;d not relate to it as well.

Look forward to reading your article Jin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree Jin, a quick look at Japanese websites is enough to show even from a basically visual glance that cultural expectations of what a website should look like is evident. So it&#8217;s a greater issue than translation of the information. That&#8217;s where I feel bridging the communities where we are and having standardistas push from within their own communities in their own language is fundamental to the effective dissemination of this knowledge.</p>
<p>Another thing. Say I was a large company with a website that would have to be used in both China and Australia, I would try to avoid just having one website that is repurposed for language alone. At that scale, with the money available, two separate websites in my opinion would be far more effective. Content needs to be specific to the audience and culture, as does design. As you point out by the Chinese example, minimilism isn&#8217;t the Chinese expectation. I know if the company was Chinese and their website that I went to deal with was a translation only I&#8217;d not relate to it as well.</p>
<p>Look forward to reading your article Jin.</p>
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		<title>By: Jin</title>
		<link>http://stevenclark.com.au/2008/11/30/working-for-international-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-3792</link>
		<dc:creator>Jin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 22:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevenclark.com.au/?p=1617#comment-3792</guid>
		<description>Steven, thank you for posting this. A very good article by Henny indeed.

Being a Chinese native, I can reflect quite a bit on this topic.

Web design in general(technology, UI, Accessibility, Standards etc) are indeed different there. Technology Standard(IE6) aside, much of what you see is driven by cultural influence. 

I&#039;ve been working on an article draft on a similar topic. Here&#039;s one of points I plan to touch up on: Western designers and audiences are becoming more appreciate for simple, elegant and clean designs. Chinese don&#039;t think that way. To them, more is more. The reason behind it, is best described by Don Norman&#039;s article last year titled &quot;Simplicity is Highly Overrated&quot;

http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/simplicity_is_highly.html

His article was quite controversial at the time, but I think I was one of few who actually agreed with him. Culture plays a huge role in design. I believe designers will be more keen to it as the web bring us closer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven, thank you for posting this. A very good article by Henny indeed.</p>
<p>Being a Chinese native, I can reflect quite a bit on this topic.</p>
<p>Web design in general(technology, UI, Accessibility, Standards etc) are indeed different there. Technology Standard(IE6) aside, much of what you see is driven by cultural influence. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been working on an article draft on a similar topic. Here&#8217;s one of points I plan to touch up on: Western designers and audiences are becoming more appreciate for simple, elegant and clean designs. Chinese don&#8217;t think that way. To them, more is more. The reason behind it, is best described by Don Norman&#8217;s article last year titled &#8220;Simplicity is Highly Overrated&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/simplicity_is_highly.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/simplicity_is_highly.html</a></p>
<p>His article was quite controversial at the time, but I think I was one of few who actually agreed with him. Culture plays a huge role in design. I believe designers will be more keen to it as the web bring us closer.</p>
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		<title>By: steven</title>
		<link>http://stevenclark.com.au/2008/11/30/working-for-international-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-3787</link>
		<dc:creator>steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 21:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevenclark.com.au/?p=1617#comment-3787</guid>
		<description>Maybe some version of the Web Standards Cafe could be very handy locally in that they could specifically aim to address this bridge between the Chinese community here, for example, and the web standardistas in China. That would be an interesting conduit for resource distribution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe some version of the Web Standards Cafe could be very handy locally in that they could specifically aim to address this bridge between the Chinese community here, for example, and the web standardistas in China. That would be an interesting conduit for resource distribution.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: steven</title>
		<link>http://stevenclark.com.au/2008/11/30/working-for-international-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-3786</link>
		<dc:creator>steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 21:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevenclark.com.au/?p=1617#comment-3786</guid>
		<description>Oops :)

Apologies Henny, it probably says a lot for my natural attention span. I&#039;ve fixed the Henry references in the post.

One of the frustrating things about the internationalisation / localisation issue that hits me (because this is one of my personal bugbears) is that everyone cops out in the first sentence of any conversation saying it either doesn&#039;t relate to their audience or is too expensive to implement. But, regardless, we live in a globalised world now and the monoculture we match to this mental model doesn&#039;t fit with what we see in the street anymore.

I&#039;m particularly disappointed in government in this aspect. Here, at least, they only want to know about articulate western educated professionals and everything else falls right off the radar (just described their managers, no?).

So it&#039;s kind of funny that we&#039;re all sitting on these cultural (valuable) resources and our own monoculture mental mismodelling blinds us to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops <img src='http://stevenclark.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Apologies Henny, it probably says a lot for my natural attention span. I&#8217;ve fixed the Henry references in the post.</p>
<p>One of the frustrating things about the internationalisation / localisation issue that hits me (because this is one of my personal bugbears) is that everyone cops out in the first sentence of any conversation saying it either doesn&#8217;t relate to their audience or is too expensive to implement. But, regardless, we live in a globalised world now and the monoculture we match to this mental model doesn&#8217;t fit with what we see in the street anymore.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m particularly disappointed in government in this aspect. Here, at least, they only want to know about articulate western educated professionals and everything else falls right off the radar (just described their managers, no?).</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s kind of funny that we&#8217;re all sitting on these cultural (valuable) resources and our own monoculture mental mismodelling blinds us to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Henny</title>
		<link>http://stevenclark.com.au/2008/11/30/working-for-international-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-3785</link>
		<dc:creator>Henny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 13:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevenclark.com.au/?p=1617#comment-3785</guid>
		<description>Hi Steve,

Many thanks for further pushing the article about China and spotlighting the issues in a wider context - or should I say a narrower one - namely our own. 

What you say is absolutely right and we should be thinking about cultural differences within our own countries and working with people to better understand internationalization and localization.

+1 on everything you say. Small steps amount to big ones and it&#039;s about time that localisation and cultural differences on the web had a bit more discussion attached it it.

Cheers, Henny

BTW It&#039;s Henny with an &#039;n&#039; and I&#039;m not actually a bloke. Strange name I know :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Steve,</p>
<p>Many thanks for further pushing the article about China and spotlighting the issues in a wider context &#8211; or should I say a narrower one &#8211; namely our own. </p>
<p>What you say is absolutely right and we should be thinking about cultural differences within our own countries and working with people to better understand internationalization and localization.</p>
<p>+1 on everything you say. Small steps amount to big ones and it&#8217;s about time that localisation and cultural differences on the web had a bit more discussion attached it it.</p>
<p>Cheers, Henny</p>
<p>BTW It&#8217;s Henny with an &#8216;n&#8217; and I&#8217;m not actually a bloke. Strange name I know <img src='http://stevenclark.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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